Why Your Body is Wiser Than Your Willpower: Breaking the Binge/Restrict Cycle with Stefanie Michele

In this conversation, Jessa sits down with Stefanie Michele to explore the deeper roots of body image, binge/restrict cycles, and recovery beyond food.

Stefanie shares her personal journey of almost seven years of recovery after decades of struggling with eating disorders, and how her work now focuses on what sits underneath symptoms: nervous system patterns, cultural conditioning, and identity formation.

The conversation moves through the tension between body acceptance and the cultural pressure to be smaller, the illusion of “optimal” nervous system states, and how social media and celebrity culture distort what we believe is normal and desirable.

At the core of the episode is a larger question: what happens when we stop trying to override the body, and instead begin to relate to it with discernment, respect, and honesty about what is actually sustainable?

00:00 Stefanie’s Journey with Body Image and Eating Disorders

05:51 Critical Thinking and Self-Alliance in Recovery

10:30 The Fantasy of the Ideal Body and Nervous System

13:54 Cultural Conditioning and Social Media's Impact

17:04 Understanding Weight Loss Resistance

22:40 The Role of Subconscious Mind in Body Image

27:33 Ancestral Trauma and Body Image

33:50 Exploring Emotional Eating and Fat Phobia

36:02 The Intersection of Genetics and Body Image

39:28 Compassion Over Shame in Body Acceptance

40:30 The Controversy of Weight Loss Drugs

43:41 The Impact of Celebrity Culture on Body Image

47:27 Navigating Body Shaming and Social Responsibility

53:57 Future Endeavors and Personal Growth

🔮 Connect with Stefanie Michele
🌐 Website: iamstefaniemichele.com
📸 Instagram: @iamstefaniemichele

👽 Connect with Jessa
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thejessaverse/

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Disclaimer: The content provided by Return to Weird and its host, Jessa, is for educational, inspirational, and entertainment purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or mental health treatment.

By listening to this show, you agree that the host and guests are not responsible for any decisions made or actions taken based on the information provided. Please always consult with a qualified professional regarding your specific health or psychological needs. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of Jessa Bruno or the Return to Weird Podcast. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I am almost seven years recovered from binge eating and restricting. After 25 years of struggling, I had to start like going against the grain to think about what actually makes sense in my body, what makes sense in my the context of me that doesn't go along with mainstream ideals. I've been through it enough that like my body will fight back. And I no longer understand that as my problem. Like I don't I don't think of that as a character deficit. I'm not missing something. I'm not like not trying hard enough. I'm not weak. I'm this is my body. This is my appetite. I stopped being afraid of that. This is culturally imposed when I allow my body to be what my body wants to be, that that's actually where I stabilize. That's where my body's constantly telling me to go.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Stephanie Michelle, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you for being here. I've been following your work for quite some time now. What I really appreciate about you is that you're not giving people quick fixes or telling them what they want to hear. So there's a level of honesty that really cuts through the noise. And I'll be honest, there were times where I was listening to you and had to turn you off because I'm like, I know that there's so much truth in what she's sharing, but it's so confronting, and I'm not willing to accept this yet. Totally. So you've definitely been something, you and Sarah, the Ben gening therapist. You both have been someone that I'll like tune into and like listen to a little bit, and then I'll be like, I have to put you away and come back to you later. Um but what I love about this is like it's rare in this space where people are packaging things nicely to like to sell something, right? Because this isn't exactly what sells, but it's what's needed, and you're really dismantling what's underneath, what's at the core of this. So it's not just you bringing in the nervous system piece, but also the cultural piece, which I find is often missing from the conversation. So thank you for doing this work. And I would love to start this conversation by grounding in your experience with body image, binging, restricting. And I know there are so many layers to this process, but if you had to distill it down to like, how did you arrive at where you are now? If there's any like pillars to this work, what would they be? Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Well, first I want to thank you for saying that because something I do struggle with is like almost the inner sense of like what this work is really about versus what social media rewards right now and what sells, right? So it's really hard to talk about some of this stuff honestly and authentically without, you know, kind of almost like crowding out some of the some of the market or even some of like your your platform itself, like and what what you what we have to work with to build things. So um I appreciate that. Um as far as my own, like where it's even like where am I now? Um so I am um almost seven years recovered from binge eating and restricting after 25 years of struggling with that and all sorts of variations of other types of EDs within that. Um and that that's usually like the place people ask me from like, how did I get there? And I would also say that in in the past seven years, like recovery hasn't just been one note. It's been, it's continued to be something that like I'm always still learning about the things beyond the food, too, and the way that my nervous system has played a role in like way more than just my body image and my food. That just seemed to be this like nest it settled in. And then all of all of the stuff was actually underneath it. And those are things I still work with and work through. But as far as how, like pillars and like kind of mainstays of my experience and like what actually keeps me here and got me here, I would say, gosh, there's so many I would say, but one of them is one of them is critical thinking. And that's because it is so noisy out there. And the beliefs that we inherit from our culture and from our inner personal stories are going to like they convince you that you're doing it wrong and that you need to be this, the shoulds and the shouldn't've, all of these things. And part of what happened when I turned 40 was, or like approaching that, was realizing that like all of that was just like I was constantly repackaging that and like putting it back onto myself and like trying to go that way, trying to go this way, trying to be this good girl, trying to be that, what you know, and that none of it came from me. Like I questioned myself all the time, and I had to start like going against the grain to think about what actually makes sense in my body, what actually makes sense in my genetic code, what makes sense in my psychology, what makes sense in my the context of me that doesn't go along with mainstream ideals. And in order for me to stay out of comparison and out of, and I say out of, and I just mean relatively out of, you know, like out of enough to be able to stay the course kind of um, is to be able to have like self-alliance and self-alliance is only born in my experience of like critically thinking about what makes actual sense for me, not what the rest of the world wants to make sense for me. And if without that, I can't do anything else because the way that the like the the headlines and the this thing, and even with nervous system regulation right now, like just all the trends of like be better, do more, here's how you evolve, like optimize yourself, like you're not doing enough, all of that. I have to, I have to be able to look at that, feel the impact of that, like pull, and then be able to say, like, what makes sense for me and reject it so that I can choose. And when I can choose, then I can keep like aligning back to myself. And that's something that again goes beyond food and body image, but I would say like that critical thinking piece in a culture that's very, very hell-bent on, especially now, just like making us feel not good enough all the time, like that dangling carrot, you know, um, is probably one of the most important things.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

There's a level of discernment that you have to have in order to even think critically and get to understand, well, what really makes sense for me outside of the noise? How do how do you find that, like that discernment? And I think there's a little bit of like probably instinct and intuition or a connection with your body that has to be present for that process to be unfolding.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

So that's a good question. And I think like examples might be helpful ways of explaining it. So on a basic level, like when it came to food and and body image, like I'm somebody I grew up in a body that was like, I'm a mid-sized person. So I was like kind of always on the, I was like big boned, you know, like that was me growing up, and my body just carries weight in certain places and wants to be a certain size. My appetite is a certain dimension, right? Like I have a hearty appetite. I am not like one of those people that eats like a bird, you know?

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Yeah, I've heard you say you eat more than your husband.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, I do eat more than my husband. I have a bigger appetite than my husband. Um, and these things have always been true about me. They were true about me before I was even in disorder, right? Like I the this is just the way that my constitution is. And I all I did was fight that, fight that, fight that, fight that. And so one of the ways that, like, you know, when when, you know, eating, eating smaller amounts, eating macros, like like just the different ways that we're taught to think about food and think about like fitting into certain a certain size, even with GLP1 conversations. Like, I know, I know, because I've been through it enough, that like my body will fight back. And I no longer understand that as my problem. Like, I don't, I don't think of that as a character deficit. I know myself to be a determined, like competent, intelligent individual. And I'm not missing something. I'm not like not trying hard enough. I'm not weak. I'm this is my body. This is my appetite. My body has found a way to make itself known throughout like all the times, right? So there has to be some at some point, and I use anger actually like as a I say anger, I have like a higher energy pattern. So I stopped being afraid of that. And I kind of was like, you know what? I have been inheriting all this, like, I'm doing it wrong. I should be, you know, on the wagon. It's my fault, fault that I'm not smaller because I've been smaller before. So why can't I, you know, all these things. All of that rhetoric to me, just like I had to start understanding like, why am I getting mad at myself for this? This is culturally imposed. This is something that I am made to feel too big and I eat too much. When inside of me, I understand over and over and over again that like when I eat too appetite and when I allow my body to be what my body wants to be, that that's actually where I stabilize. That's where my body's constantly telling me to go. And so to listen to kind of the obvious instead of to keep trying to force a square peg into a round hole, you know, like so the intuition piece and that discernment a lot of times comes just from like listening, listening. I hate to use that word, but like it's understanding. Well, I just because it's so vague and abstract, like listening to your body. But it's really just kind of paying attention to the patterns and respecting them and like also surrendering the ego's amount of control with it, right? So I know I would would I like to be smaller? Would it be easier for me to be smaller? It would be easier for me to shop, it would be easier for me to like just not think about certain things when it comes to body image, sure. Sure, you know, like, but is that is that sustainable for me? No. And I can accept that. And it is that, you know, it's it's understanding what's true about my situation, what's true about my genetic code, what's true about my anxiety and my, you know, my moods or my emotions and the amount of rest I need. Like those things can't keep knocking at the door. You can keep rejecting them, but they keep knocking at the door. And so when that happens, that's where that discernment is like, well, maybe I'll answer the door. Like maybe that's for a reason, even though it's judged, you know. And so I kind of had to work on not judging myself and start looking at it like, what if what if this makes actual sense? And a lot of that was nervous system work too.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

You mentioned in a post, you said when your fantasy body is your fantasy nervous system, and that really hit. And is there anything you like to share about that? Just expanding on what that really means.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Yeah, um, I can use examples again. So um, so I I also have I have anxiety and I have dealt with depression in the past. Um I just have, again, like this higher energy pattern. Um, I feel big and I think a lot and and I'm sensitive. And so again, it would be easier if those things did not exist. And it would be easier if I could just be like my husband, like really just low-key, even keel, you know, go with the flow and not get triggered at things sometimes. And and I think that's the sell, right? Like that even with nervous system regulation, that it's um that some version of our best self is like really kind of monk on the mountain, or oh my god, I hate this, you know, or just this really triggers me. Like, yeah, unbothered, regulated.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

But this is like this, and this is like, and I'm all about feminine reclamation, right? But this is like what women are like conditioned into. It's another way of silencing women and disconnecting them from their anger and like the bigness of who they are.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Yes, yes. And it's this whole package that is sold, right? And it's appealing because also it sounds nice. It sounds nice to be able to just like not feel so much, right? Like, or to not care, you know, but it's a fantasy. Like it's it's this ideal of like what it means, even from a wellnessy perspective, less so even a diet culture perspective, but like that having complete stress management all the time and feeling um like never having insecurity or never having you know doubt ever is attainable. And to me, you know, it's kind of like I I would love that, sure, but I also would have to self-sacrifice in great measure to achieve that. And I'd have to fake it. Like I I couldn't do that. So there is this, there's this way of like kind of being like, who am I? Where are the places that I would like to evolve? Sure, like I'm all about that. But where how is that realistic? And and in what ways do I do I not kind of subscribe to this fantasy of myself and instead think about who am I actually and how where's my growth edge personally, rather than like again, this picture, this image of what's sold to us. And so I think with body image, there's a I think the body image cell is a very closely attached to the nervous system cell, like that there's some level of perfection you can get to that's streamlined and without you know, kind of so to speak, cuts the fat, right? Like and and that's that's also an illusion. And I think it's kind of almost idolatry. So um I think it's so much less fancy. I think that I think regulation, the way I I like to talk about it, is actually just simplifying um who we are and and accepting who we are, right? Like not necessarily thinking we have to become so much more than we could possibly be realistically.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

And so why do we feel like we have to? So kind of getting into these cultural like impositions and these standards that we're held to and how really unrealistic they are. And then maybe and then maybe connecting that to like diet culture.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

And the harm in that.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

And the and the harm in that. Um I think social media is a big part of this at this point. I mean, it's not like it's the only part of it, because we've clearly had these ideals before. But I think the um in the there's just a saturation at this point of like our day, a lot of our hours of the day are spent on social media, like scrolling images and words uh of curated things, right? Like of the perfect bodies, perfect homes, perfect lifestyles, um, morning routine. And nothing's wrong with a morning routine or a well-kept home, right? Like, I mean, these things, fine. Like there, there's nothing, it's not the inherent nature of them, it's just the imposition of them on like what makes the cut in terms of like what what the algorithm favors, to our point earlier, right? That that what sells, what gets clicks, are the fantasies. It's the it's the ideals, it's the aspirational content. And so as much as like as we are building a society of rewarding that more and more and more, because I think you know, it's like the dopamine, the primal parts of our brain that are like, ooh, uh, if you give me like a flashy headline or really like compelling or even threatening kind of um, you know, message, I'm gonna pay attention to that. And then that's gonna go up higher and higher and higher. So those perfect idolized bodies, the um perfect idolized nutritional plates, you know, like these kinds of things are pushed, push, push, push, they sell. And that becomes its own thing now. Like now that becomes the thing you're seeing the most and the thing that you're assuming is the most normal because our brains believe that what it sees most often is act is is also the most normal, which is the opposite of true in real life, but not on social media. So on social media, what you see the most is probably the most abnormal, but is also the most thing, the thing you're seeing the most. So now our brains are being kind of confused in terms of like, oh, this must be normal. Even if you logically get it, it doesn't matter. It bypasses your logic and you're what you're really ingesting is the is the subconscious messaging that like this is what's normal, and what's normal is going to leave you feeling like, well, I need to, I need to be normal because I'm a human being in a social system. So I need to I need to keep up, which is also normal to do. Um, but it's so big, it's so exaggerated now that that's that's the messaging we've received. And I mean, I work with clients a lot where it's such a belief system that you don't even see it, right? And with diet culture as well, it's like it it doesn't even occur to us until we actively deconstruct it that we wouldn't aspire to lose weight at all costs. Like that, that's like that is what health is, that is what evolution is, that is what responsibility is, like discipline in that regard, like forget inner peace or like, you know, even what what regulation really means. It's it's largely about the imagery and and that that's becoming the gold standard outside of our awareness of explicitly naming that. It's just becoming what's in our in the back of our heads from all the imagery we're ingesting every single day.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Thank you for saying that. Cause it's so important and it does bypass our conscious mind. So if we think we're not being fooled by it, like we're we naturally are, we're we're taking it in. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna talk about um, I wanna talk about why our body resists weight loss.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Like what is going on there? And also, like at some point, I really want to get at this because listening to your content has really helped me in terms of like, I don't binge anymore because I don't restrict anymore. And I've gained weight as a result of that. I've gained 10 pounds. And I'm sitting with this, like, you know, I'm still not accepting of it, I'm not comfortable, but I refuse to lose weight because if that means restricting, I know I'm gonna go back into a cycle of binging. Right. So it's like, is there a safe way to lose weight? Because it's almost like and and do would we even want to lose weight if we're not like is that desire just because of our conditioning? Like, there's just so much here that so many different threads.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yes, there are a lot of threads there. So I think that it's also very like to be honest, like realistically, people want to lose weight because we are, yes, we're conditioned to want to, for sure. I also think there's situations where um we might want to lose weight for functionality, or like I've worked with some clients who are very uncomfortable and want to be able to have better mobility and things like that. And there's also ways of talking about that and and strengthening, but I think there's there's lots of different reasons, but cultural conditioning is definitely one of them, like that we would want to lose weight for in ways that we can't even, I don't even think I can really deconstruct the difference. You know what I mean? Like what's what I've been conditioned to believe versus what feels like true. Um because of that, I think we need to know that. I think we need to understand that that's there and also not feel guilty that there might be a desire for that. But what you said is like where I sit with it too, where it's like, okay, well, I know that my binges, at least in my later part of life, like or my later years in my 30s, came from restricting. They really, really, and they started with restricting as well. Um there was also a period of time where I was binging for emotional reasons. And I think that's a bit, I think about that a little differently because when somebody's eating emotionally a lot and or eating to sort of squash things in their nervous system or things in their body, that can create weight gain. That I think sometimes when people want to lose that that weight, it's not necessarily it might be like beyond a set point, right? Like that some weight comes on our bodies beyond a set point when we're not sure how to cope with those emotions, which is different than a body that's resisting restriction. Um, because there might be like I where I ended up was like where I think my weight set point is. I don't emotionally eat now. I do have a big appetite, I am eating to my appetite, and that's biological. And this is just happens to be where my body is when it's like that. This is my code. Um, I do not believe I could lose weight from here because if I did, it would require restricting my body be below its appetite, below its natural set point, and my body will rebel. And again, it's just there's only so many times I can try that before I like get the message, right? So there's a certain amount of acceptance. That doesn't mean there's not grief, but there's a certain amount of respect for what is um that I had to come to to get to be here. But but if I were binging and, you know, for for emotional reasons and gaining weight and gaining weight, I think that in that case, weight loss would be something I could think about because my body would potentially be holding on to more from the viewpoint of just like I hate to like the overeating, you know what I mean, in in that respect. So there's a difference, I think. But anytime that you have binging in your history, and definitely any time that you have restricting in your history, there's a what I believe like is a code. So your system recodes that restriction as a physical trauma, like there's a threat there. You've ever gone below your weight set range for long enough andor done any drastic diets, and your system's like, Great, we're going to protect against any future endeavors to do that the same way that if you got bit bitten by a dog, you know, like at a young age, and a dog comes racing towards you 50 years later, you're still gonna flinch because your system has coded something. And this is also like hard to accept sometimes. But I think it's I think that when you're talking about intentional weight loss when you have been burned by restriction enough, your body doesn't forget it. And that intentional weight loss is I just think that the body is set up to protect against that. And that code isn't something you just override with willpower, you know, it's it's really strong and it was it's it's a survival instinct, and where bodies are much more likely to want to keep weight on than take it off from just a survival, you know, just our evolutional history, you know. So that's something that I I think we just respect. Uh I don't mess around. So, like again, you know, if I wanted to lose weight, I have wanted to lose weight, but I don't, I don't compromise what my body is telling me. It's it's it's it's wiser than me and it's it's more powerful than me. And so it's not a matter of like I'm not eating in an aligned way. I am, and this is my body when I do.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

So, what do you think about because I played in this territory for a long time. It was it was damaging, but I'm wondering if there is some truth in this. Like, ugh, I hate almost even hate saying this, but like, what about because you know, uh the power of our mind, right? The power of our mind to affect like material reality. So, like you hear, I there was actually a video that popped up on my on my YouTube feed the other day. It was like, just let yourself be skinny. And I was like, Yeah, if I saw something like that, yeah, it would have like 20 million views.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

So, like, could we, could we, like in just entertaining this for a moment, could we if I wanted to like take some ketamine, like obviously like in the clinical setting, hopefully, take some ketamine, rewire my subconscious mind. Could I, could I like bypass some of that really hard wired programming to change my relationship with this kind of a thing, this this restriction and this binging, like what's possible here?

SPEAKER_00 24:24

I mean, I don't know, but but here's my thoughts on it. One is that subconscious wiring with that trauma code we're talking about, um maybe, but if that code has, I believe that like what happens psychologically ends up physiological. So if the body can was designed to be a certain weight, I don't know that you can ever under like that you could override biology. You can override psychology, I think, in this way, and that will affect your your ner your phys physiology, but I don't know that you could actually override. Like, for example, I don't think you could do ketamine, like go and you know, try this and be like, I'd like to have red hair. Well, right biologically, I don't know, maybe you could. Who knows? Like, I don't know how deep these things go, but like I doubt it. I don't I think the things that your body is like, this is my code, this is who we are, won't necessarily be overridden. But there are going to be things that are subconsciously and psychologically, like there's gonna be another layer of something that like is is physiologically tied to your psychology, and maybe that these things get can happen. However, I think that the subconscious is so strong that if you're doing something with the intention of like bypassing yourself, I think some other part of your subconscious knows that. Like I think that there's gonna be ways in which we try like I used to try like hypnosis for for weight loss, you know, and I think you you personally tried that? I did that way way back when, you know, like I I I tried that and I think, you know, and I or I would do like manifest it wasn't called manifesting then, but that's what it was, right? Like it was um, I would, I would, I would really try to get in touch with like my my authentic self and I would visualize a thinness and and I and I did it not to be like just then I was like, I just want to feel better. And it came like part of it was coming from like a I just wanted a feel better place. It wasn't all like not the entirety of us is like I just want to be thin at all costs. Like, you know, it's it's tied to something, it's tied to something that's trying to protect trying to feel safe. So I I think that's fair, but there's also I think this part of us that's like if we are doing something and thinness is the barometer of what makes us safe or makes us worthy, if that's the key to entry, no. Like I think there's something that fights for us that says, like, that cannot come first. That can't be your condition. Um and will also equally as hard like be like, no, sorry. Um, and I think that's a higher part of us. I think that's not ego. I think that's what's beyond our ego. I think it's the part that fights to move past our ego um so that we can understand who we are without a condition. Because if we only accept ourselves when we're smaller, yeah, that's conditional.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Totally. That's that's my struggle here. Like that's what I'm continuing to. I I don't really know how to, it's it's so deeply wired. Because I grew up like in the 90s. Um, well, yeah, I mean, I grew, I was like born in '92, technically '93, because I was two days away from 93. Good times. But my sister was a few years older. We like this is so dysfunctional. We would, we would cut out images of like Angelina Lima, I remember specifically, like really thin women and put it in a scrapbook. And we would look at it every time we wanted to eat. Like I was 10 years old doing this. My sister also bullied me because I was always chubbier than her. So like there's so much there, but this idea of thinness, like it's so interwoven with my sense of worth and value as a woman that like I am this is just so core. And I'm like, how do I, how do I like actually deconstruct this because I can't?

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Well, like the how of that is like the second question. But it's almost like as I'm listening to you, I'm like, okay, well, then the part of you who's your like inner or the part of you that's fighting for your inner 10-year-old is the part that's like, we can't do this through weight because that was the that was how you ingested worth and safety. We have to like that would just confirm it. You know, like that would just make it, yeah, that would just teach you exactly what you're that what you're trying to escape actually is something you need to escape. And instead, kind of like, wait, how do we lead you towards finding okayness or safety or acceptance without that? And that's probably like obviously that's like the higher goal that that that is, but like we live in the world. So it's really hard to do that. Like it's it's uh and do we have time? Like, how much time would that take? And sometimes I think about like all the things that I'd love to heal, you know. It's like, well, yeah, I don't know if in the next however long I have here on this planet, like that's gonna happen because these things are always being pushed the other way, like there's a lot of safety to negotiate in the here and now that has a we have to be realistic about what we're dealing with. But I also think having some kind of understanding of like maybe there's a force beyond this that's trying to help me understand myself beyond this. Like that's what that is. And that instead of getting mad, because I used to get really mad, I still can sometimes get mad and frustrated at it all. I'm just like, what? I don't want to deal with this. Like, why do I have to deal with this? But there's potentially like something more that it's pointing towards, and that that's part of the evolution, actually. You know, like that that's the more I can come back to like being with myself despite the fact that I get frustrated, what that I'm getting something. There's some self-alliance in that. You know, there's something there I didn't have before, and that's strengthening, you know. It also at times feels the opposite, but but like there's there is growth. That's what I mean. In the seven years I've been recovered, like more, more has come up for me in terms of really understanding my self-trust. Like the fact that I have been tempted a million times to like, you know, just just to turn on myself again. And then all every time I don't is like, okay, how much more does do I trust myself now? And that goes beyond just even my consciousness, I think. So, you know, that that will start to impact like my my critical thinking and those kinds of things like that keep me there. So so yeah, I think there's a certain amount of trust in it, but also I think there's there's a validity to validating how hard it is, you know, and how safety is hard to come by when we learn these things.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

It sounds like there's something you're connecting with spiritually. That's kind of yeah. Do you talk, but I don't think I've heard you speak about that. I'm curious.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

I don't speak about it a lot because I don't identify like I'm not a religious person, but I wouldn't say, well, it's kind of what my own personal relationship with it is. I I think a lot about almost um like energy because the nervous system appeals to me. So there's this energetic component, and I also think in these cultural terms, and I've I'm I think of I'm like it that doesn't end in culture. Like there's a there's a greater, there's everything micro is macro and everything macro is micro. And I'm um, you know, just kind of understanding the way things work and understanding seeing patterns over time is like where everything's connected to something else. And and what seems like the smallest pattern, I can see in like way larger things. Um including like, I mean, I started watching because you know, the inst Facebook reels and Instagram reels will start sending me like um quantum physics kind of stuff and consciousness fundamental. Yeah. And it's like, and even the idea of binging and restricting when I um, you know, this idea that like e every action has an equal and opposite reaction, like that was relevant to my binge recovery. And it like these kinds of concepts, I'm like, it appears to everything. So when I think about spirituality, it's that like it's kind of like the way that everything's connected and the way that everything makes sense, and the way there is a there's a method to the madness and the energy fields, like or in the energy forces. Like to me, it's almost scientific. Um and that kind of is my it is spiritual too. Like there's there's something there. I don't talk about it because it's not something I feel like I'm um I haven't studied it or anything. It's just something I've come I personally relate to.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Yeah, your lived experience of it.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Yeah, I think it could be cool to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Okay, thanks.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

I mean, I will I mean I would love it, but I guess that's just me. Um you said that the the body is designed to be a certain weight, and I hear that, and I'm like thinking about my the women in my family who I feel like, but see, this is the thing though, because the women in my family, they they hold weight in their like upper body, like their like face and like their upper body is just like, and same with me, like my legs are a lot thinner than like my upper body. I feel like there's a there's an element of trauma in that because knowing them well, like they have not they have not processed like all of the trauma that they've experienced. And I feel like there's a level of responsibility that the women in my family take on. And I feel like it's almost like showing up in the body. And so I'm like, okay, my but if my body is designed to be a certain weight, am I designed to look like them? And will I look like them as I get older? Or like because I've done so much ancestral work and trauma work, like maybe, maybe not. But then is that wrong to you guys?

SPEAKER_00 34:07

You know who talked about this? Lizzo. Did you did you see her? She wrote like a Substack essay on this because she lost a significant amount of weight, I think it was last year, and she talked about like that some of it was trauma releasing, like that she that's almost like um the weight we carry is like the weight on our shoulder, like like you're saying, right? And this this concept has come up. I think it's come up across the board, even in I remember in the in the 90s, at which point I was already in like my teens, you know, and I remember reading about this then and hearing about that. It was big in the emotional eating space. And I think there is a conversation we can have about it. I also think there's a lot of fat phobia that can get dumped into it, you know. So it can become this like new way of pathologizing fatness, you know, and we have to, I think I'm mindful of like that's gonna that's almost gonna co-sign our cultural messaging of like fatness is pathological. And so can we carry weight that is potentially like energetically stored, like you're saying? You know, yes, I think there is room for that conversation. Is all fat that? No, you know, and I I think that that's we can't lean to it's a dangerous slope to to go down to like to condemn it all for being, you know, because then what happens to like like it doesn't leave room for just like some people to have for to be fat, you know, like that just are without independent of trauma. Um but is there, is there's it's interesting though, because like I'm lower body heavier, so like my whole family, whole family is like really curvy, like hips and thighs and big rear ends, like but really narrow tops. And I'm like, what would that be? Like what's the exact I was like, huh, how does that then apply?

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Like which, you know, but and there's like you can Google that, and I don't know how accurate this is at all. I haven't really looked into it, but like, so like a triangle shape, like what emotional stuff is there, what kind of trauma? And then like if you're pear-shaped or whatever. Yeah. And I think it's like, don't quote me on this, but I think because I had I have a lot of friends who are more pear-shaped, and I was like, wait, but that kind of fits. It's like um, I think it's like uh mania or something. Um let me not, let me not go there. I'll oh okay. I'll look at it. I don't know for sure. But something about it like resonated with my experience of that.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Interesting. Like, I mean, we could talk. I mean, this is like a this is so conversational. Like, I don't know, and don't quote quote me on this. But like I'm thinking about even um, I'm like, well, is the way that our genet, like even just going into history and like, did did the way is are the things that we maybe took on in our in our cultural groups related to the way we ended up storing fat? It must be, again, from like an evolution point of view.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Like you know, that's like epigenetics, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yes, yeah. And like that there might be, there has to be a reason why some of us store fat on top and some of us store fat on the bottom, right? Like there that came from somewhere and is probably and must be related to some kind of adaptation that corresponded to it. And maybe part of that adaptation was, or maybe part of the groups that carried weight up here versus down there also happened to be in, you know, like doing things or providing in such a way that they were also giving, you know, carrying a lot of the emotional burden, you know what I mean? Like that can be something. But even still, if you think about it, it's like there's a sense to it and there's a function to it. And like to have that kind of respect for that, um, I think will get us farther than, oh, I just want to I want to get rid of it and fix it. You know, like I think that when we're coming from shame and fear, that will keep the thing, it doesn't create change. Whereas if we're kind of like having more of an instinct to have compassion for that or to be like, that was how, even if this is true, it's like that was how my ancestors carried, that's how they survived something. Like that's how they made sense of, you know, that that kind of under that kind of respect, I think, would be more in aligned with where with this evolution we're talking about, then okay, well, if I if I go to therapy, can I get rid of my, you know, like broad shoulders, you know?

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Right, because there's that level of resistance in there, like you're just resisting it instead of appreciating really like what your ancestors did to even allow you to be here because yeah, they that was they that's what they did to survive. It's why you're literally here.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

And so there's like a rejection of your whole lineage by trying to fix that.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Exactly. It's kind of it's hard to do this while the rest of the world is like, could you just lose weight? You know, like it doesn't look good, you know, and and I think that's why being in this work does not sell. You know, it's it's this kind of stuff is much more abstract and it's much harder, and it's definitely less acceptable than the quick fixes, you know. But in my experience, those quick fixes, which I pursued ad nauseum for years and years, just never got me anywhere. And so I think we reach a point sometimes where we we want to get somewhere. And that's where sometimes we we we move over into thinking about these things differently and we look for the deeper answers that take a longer time. Um, and that doesn't mean they're without you, you have to stop being human and you have to, you know, I still have body image stuff, you know, I still deal with that, I still live in the world. Um, but it's at the end of the day, it comes to like I respect something greater than myself going on, and it's not because I want to, it's just because I kind of had to. Like it was like, yeah, this is just what is true. And I didn't want to run from that anymore because it wasn't making my life better.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Do you find the people that come to you are at a place where they're ready to confront this stuff? Yeah. Like maybe they've done a certain level of work before. Cause I feel like you are gonna attract a certain kind of like you're not gonna Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yeah. The the people that come to me have have obviously found me from somewhere, and usually it's Instagram or or my podcast. And if you've listened to me or read my stuff there, you're going to like you'll kind of like, all right. Probably like you're saying, like, I get a lot of people who are like, I followed you for years and just wasn't ready to, you know. And then they're like, but now here I am, like again, like banging my head against the wall, and I feel like it's time to contact you. And so that is a lot of times. Um, you know, it's inter it's it's yeah, I think the kind of people who my content attracts are people who are who are thinking a lot about this stuff and also like there's a certain amount of readiness to go to a deeper level, yeah, which is my favorite thing to do. So it works out.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

So I would love to get your opinion on Ozempic and like those weight loss drugs.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

Okay. So I think I'm not like blanketly against them. Um, I have clients who have used them. Um, I will say just quite honestly that the clients who are live in bigger bodies have used them at times sometimes because they want more functionality, right? Like, or they just want to feel safer in the world. And when it comes to that, I I I I under, yeah, I have a lot of compassion for that. Um I also have clients who have chosen not to, and actually I want to do a podcast episode on this because I find it fascinating how people who who binge eat or deal with body image stuff like choose for choose to go on it or not. You know, I think it's such an interesting thing, like our reasons and what leads us to those decisions or not. Um and so I think there is room for it, and I would never say, you know, if I'm I'm not in a plus size body. So I'm not going to assume that I know that, you know, I'm not gonna judge that. But I do kind of like when it comes to the thin wanting to get thinner, you know, I hear a lot of stories about, you know, people who are a size 10 just wanting to be a size six, or people who are a size six just wanting to be a zero, you know? And I think that that's where this abuse of these drugs are coming in to make to give privilege more privilege to the privileged. And that's catering to, that is catering to fat phobia, that is catering to the the all the systems, the hustle culture, like capitalism, patriarchy, like all of these things. It's promoting that, it's endorsing that, it's creating wider gaps between the haves and have nots. And I think there's a big difference in like, you know, sort of uh further maximizing and optimizing your body from a place of that already holds privilege. I don't agree with that. I I find that to be the abuse of those drugs. I I think they're directly upholding the systems that I like speak and feel so passionately against. Um and so yeah, for the and at the same time, I recognize that anyone who's doing that, it's to me, everything's about safety, right? So there is still, it's not like somebody who's trying to be a size zero from a size six is is I don't believe they're doing that for entirely vanity reasons. I believe that everything we're doing, you mean we think we have to do it. Yes, a size six or size zero. Like that that somebody is trying to like there's something in them that feels like they have to be even smaller to be safer, right? And I have compassion for that. But I also think there's a certain amount of social responsibility around like checking that and understanding that's your work to do rather than going to a drug that further like impacts socially so social layers of privilege. And I know that people don't necessarily think about it that way, but I do. So that's my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Which brings up celebrity culture.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

And I know you've been talking a lot about that. And I actually just posted something where it was like the Hunger Games um song. And it was like showing all of the dresses that people I for I don't even know what event it was because I don't pay attention to any of this. Yeah. But it was like ridiculous. Like Nicki Minaj was wearing, I don't even know what she was wearing, but it was, it's just like so scary how it's just the celebrity culture is really just scary.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

I yeah, I've been writing about that.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Um, because they are the front lines of what is normal in terms of the amount of um imagery that we ingest of theirs. So we're seeing them. And not only are we seeing them most often, because they're all over headlines, because people care about celebrities. And so that's what goes, that's what fills your scroll or that like news outlets and media outlets. But it's also like they're they're applauded. So like right now, the Met Gala is the root most recent thing, right? This is what was where all these people these pictures are being taken. And like the um the the Double Rose product too just came out. And so there's all right now this this stuff about like Anne Hathaway and Meryl Streep do not age, right? And so there's all these before and after.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

You you had a photo of her, like she literally looks the same.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

She looks the same. And and this is not uncommon, it's not unique to Anne Hathaway, it's not unique to the Del Rose product. It's this is across the board, right? That all I see when I go on Facebook in particular, um, is like she's aging like a fine wine, or she doesn't age, or oh my like, and all the comments are like, yay, yay, yay, no aging, which is like that isn't human. Like that's not literally, it's not human. And it's also super supported by extreme finances, you know. So the fact that we as a you know, less like layman are like looking to this celebrity culture and being like, that's that's the optimized self. That's that's the goal. And being that what we're what we're doing is like putting ourselves in a box because now this is the standard of beauty and like achievement that we can't do, like we can't afford that, or we can't, we don't have the time and energy to like dedicate our lives to like with a personal chef and a trainer. Not only that, but even if I did have that kind of time and money, like I don't want my life to be about that. And so by I by making this like the goal, now all like that's what's creating these standards. And so I think that celebrity culture is this like has this power that we're all catering to by applauding it. And also then we're we're degrading ourselves. Like, how many women do I hear every day? Like even friends of mine who are just like, oh, I can't stand these wrinkles, like putting themselves down for natural aging processes or weight gain and stuff like that. And that is fed directly from what is the world saying about these things? That comes from the common conversation we're all having about celebrities because we all know who they are. We know if they have or haven't aged. It's like a common ground for everybody. So this is where that's starting. And then of course it trickles down into your everyday. And that's the insidiousness, I think, of this of celebrity culture, especially with social media now, to help propagate all these messages of like we we approve of the An Hathaways who don't age. We, you know, we we approve of all the celebrities losing all this weight. Good for them, good for them. And we're not allowed to talk about it, you know, because that's body shiny. That's another thing that I feel strongly about.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Do you want to say anything about that?

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Um yeah, I just it's um I did a podcast episode uh back in the fall on this, like um how you know, with with a lot of celebrities losing weight and making, you know, their their photos are all over. And so when people are naming that, that that is not, you know, the the outcry is don't talk about people's bodies. And I understand that sentiment entirely, um, don't talk about people's bodies. But when you're talking about celebrity culture, if we don't talk about the bodies that are dominating the space and the message that that's sending implicitly to kids and to all of us, then we're ignoring a problem. Like I think that hiding behind don't talk about bodies, it's like that's when you're talking on personal levels. When you when you enter a stratosphere of like celebrity, then that has a that has a social impact. And you cannot ignore that social impact and you can't hide behind personal shaming. I think these are two separate things, and the understanding of that is really important.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Yeah, it makes me think of um, I mean, I couldn't agree more. It makes me think of um Ariana Grande. Yes. And she's in wicked. Wicked? Why is that sad? It's wicked, right? Okay. Yeah. I'm so bad with all of this. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

For you.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

I don't know who so many of the people, I forget who like some baby. I keep seeing like something baby. I'm like, who is that? But anyways, okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:32

Oh, I don't know. I don't even know that one.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

I can't I know I can't remember the full name, but um Wicked. So so many children are tuning into Wicked, and yeah, I literally cannot look at Ariana Grande without cringing because I feel at any moment her bones are about to break. That's a problem. That's not body shaming, it's like, are you okay, truly actually? Right. Because there's like an emancy, emanciation. Is that the right word? That she's ama, yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

How do you say it? Emaciated. Yeah, emaciation. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yes. And and because it's kind of like if Aaron, if Ariana Grande was a woman walking along the street like that nobody knew, you would never dream of posting her picture online and being like, look at this woman. She needs to eat a burger, right? Like that's ridiculous. That's that's body shaming. That's like calling somebody out. But when you're talking about her as a celebrity, that is in everybody's living room, including little kids, that not only like that that's being like she's being idolized, she's Glenda, like she's beautiful. She's the whole package of this is putting her body as like the pit the center of the imagery here that is the cell. That's a social problem. And that has to be called out. Whatever she's doing personally, and the way we feel about like, is she okay or not, is is also valid and true. But there's something else now happening with the symbolism of the bodies we see mainly, and now they're all shrinking. You know, that's that has an impact on the people watching and what we're seeing is normal, and that is worthy of attention. That's that's a separate thing to shaming.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Yeah, it's very different. And also, like with everybody taking Ozempic, it also feels like there's um like you can tell. Like, I don't know, there's something I think it's called OZ Ozempic face. Like, there's like a it's almost like it's doing something to the life force. And I don't want to like create fear in anybody that's on it, like, you know, but it seems to be like there's um I don't know how to explain it. It's do you get what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Yeah, well, when we rapid weight loss like in the face, you know, and with how the impact like yeah, and how that that occurs with um, you know, it does occur with rapid weight loss. And I think that there's a difference between well, because I think a lot of the times this medication is being abused, right? So it's being used to actively suppress an appetite to basically sanction an eating disorder. Yeah. And you there are ways of taking that drug so that you're not rapidly losing weight and that you're not like bypassing nourishment. And I have I have client, any client that I've ever worked with who is on this drug, like that is part of what they're doing. They're like, I want to do, I want to do this responsibly. I'm not trying to like just short circuit my, you know, just not trying to have an eating disorder here. But I think by and large, most people are like, well, I don't have an appetite and therefore I'm not gonna eat. And that's kind of the point. And then that's gonna result in like some some changes in the in the phys in the physique that you know indicate potentially malnourishment or rapid weight loss that doesn't come from taking care of ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

Wouldn't that also mean though, that the second you stop taking the medication and your appetite returns, which it will, that you'll just gain back the weight you lost?

SPEAKER_00 52:48

Yes. I think that if you're on, if you go on a GLP one for weight loss, that you uh it has to be a lifetime. I think you will, I mean, otherwise, yes, you will come off it and you will it will be just like going on a diet and then you'll gain back more than you. I don't think there's any other I I think you'd have to stay on it. Or else. Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

So it's like a lifelong medication.

SPEAKER_00 53:10

I think I think knowing what we know about weight loss and the way the body responds, like as soon as your appetite comes back, your body's gonna be like, okay, no. You know, and that and then all of a sudden the appetite's gonna be allowed back in, and that's going to create, you know, all this all this weight gain. And yeah, I I I can't imagine it any other way.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

Do you think it's doing something to the physiology? Like obviously it's doing something to the physiology because it's changing the way that appetite is and hunger signals are processed, but long term, I guess we don't know enough.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

That's that's why I personally feel like um, you know, because we don't know. I know that they've been studied for people who've had diabetes, but they haven't been studied long term and people who don't have diabetes. And I think that's metabolically relevant. Um, so I don't think we can know. And that's why I find them, you know, that's why in my per like that's one personal reason that I wouldn't I would not do that, um, among others, but like that that would be one of the big ones for me. And that's what I've heard too from people, you know, who choose not to, or like I don't know what that I don't necessarily trust the long-term implications of this. You know, and yeah, it's it's it again, I'm not I'm not a medical doctor on that, but it's just kind of like my own critical thinking for myself um would lean there.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Yeah, that makes sense. So is there what what are you up to lately? Is there anything you're doing that you're offering any? Do you do programs or I know you do individual coaching? Do you do programs?

SPEAKER_00 54:44

I do one-to-one individual coaching. That's like my favorite thing to do, and I know it burns most people out and they turn to like membership models, but like I just love one-to-one coaching. Um, I do like WhatsApp individual coaching and Zoom um combinations and stuff, but I also run groups. So I have um a group usually that runs every season. Right now, I'm running the body image workshop. Um, and I'm also gonna be writing a book. So I'm I'm taking a little bit of time this summer um modified schedule to get my book started. I don't know how long it will take to write, but I did sign a book contract. So that's what I'm working on now and hoping to open. Yeah. Um, I'm hoping to open something called the cocoon in I don't know when. I'm not gonna pretend I know when, I don't know when. Um, which is like to have more like um like videos that talk about like nervous system and somatic, you know, somatic practices and things and body image and food. And I just kind of felt like have a hub that people can use um with some meetings and connection points, but that's in the works.

unknown 55:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

That sounds helpful. I hope so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

It's meant to be.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you want to touch on before we go? I just want to leave some.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

No, no, that was awesome. Lots of good questions.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Cool. I I love I love what you're doing, and I'm gonna continue to tune into your work. And um, I just really appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom. It means a lot of people. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

It was awesome to meet you.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

Yeah, you too.